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12/04/2013 16:04:57

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494
I'm with Mr Dreeko on this one, to quote from the other thread....

I just can't see any possible reason for someone wanting to see items which they won't be animating on a timeline which is effectively a panel for controlling elements over time!?
If they wish to view all items they have the scene window for that.

Timeline should be for time management and nothing more in my opinion.
If anyone can explain to me the benefit to having timelines devoted to motionless and unchanging items I'd love to hear it. I really would!

This seems to be a solution that solves everyone's problems.

I have been actually been fiddling with PLAY since its release rather than filling up the forum. I have produced a couple of small videos as animated comments for Facebook. Ignoring the above issue the timeline does have some very good new ideas e.g. snapping, seeing more than one character at once. waveform display, etc. etc. I could go on but my point is that it would be unwise to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The buttons may be to small for a 1920x1080 display. Can I suggest an option for a pop out box with just the control buttons, this could be appear at the top/bottom of the screen when you click direct. It would also allow more space for those of us with smaller displays to view the action. If you expand the size of the current timeline dialogue with bigger buttons I will spend even more time moving it around instead of animating. You could even hide the timeline completely whilst the controls are displayed and it could re-appear on pressing >STOP<. This would give the whole screen up for viewing the action.

Please don't, by trying to address everyone's concerns, turn Muvizu into something it is not and was never intended to be. The ease and essence of the program must remain imho but as has been said ad infinitum, filling it up with everything has actually made it harder for the experts let alone the new users and it needs to be fixed as a matter of great urgency. I was using one static character, one static backdrop and one static camera and even I was getting slightly irritated by the number of clicks required to see what I wanted to see.

On a side note, in your haste and efficiency to fix this problem please don't forget the > In Use < focus issue. That is causing me a lot more grief than the new timeline at the moment.

Well, that's my 10 pence worth for today and I will now leave you in peace to continue with the vital tasks at hand. Can I suggest that all future releases be handed to a small group of users who can be trusted to keep schtum, ( me for one ), so that these and other problems can be addressed without causing a panic.

I will now retire to the kitchen for some hard earned doughnuts.

Damn Computer..
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12/04/2013 16:16:13

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
Great posting WozToons! I completely agree, I'll go and produce a screenshot for you, with your timeline concept. Good Posting
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12/04/2013 16:20:18

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
I guess I would also like to know is muvizu trying to make "muviclone" is this the path they are taking? I didnt mind it the other way as you can see by my video creating activity. I dont need or care about "Muviclone" I just want a usable timeline that isn't going to bring the software to its knees.

snapping good
wavefile good

multipe charaters in a timeline would be nice, but.. not in the present format

multiple objects sometimes .. i created a fleet of pumpkins for an alien invasion of pumpkin starships, but I could do without it. and I could be quite happy without multiple characters.

I just wanna make "cool cheesy videos" with dumb jokes hidden in the background for "effect"
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12/04/2013 16:28:35

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494
MrDrWho13 wrote:
Great posting WozToons! I completely agree, I'll go and produce a screenshot for you, with your timeline concept. Good Posting


Thanks mate but it's really not necessary, just a minimal media player box would suffice. If you must, chop the group of big buttons out of your last one and stick them on the screen as is.


edited by WozToons on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 16:35:45

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
Here is Woztoons' idea for the timeline during recording.

edited by MrDrWho13 on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 16:42:03

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494
Looks good, with an option to hide timeline when clicking direct and restore on clicking stop you can see how we single screen laptop users would benefit.

Btw Mr Who, that picture is far too big. I cannot "reply with quote" to it because the comment box is full of scrollbars. For future reference make them smaller.
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12/04/2013 16:43:45

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
OK, I'll try!
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12/04/2013 16:47:01

WozToonsExperimental user
WozToons
Posts: 494
MrDrWho13 wrote:
OK, I'll try!


Off Topic

For Windows you can get a free handy right-click picture resizer that I use every day.

http://imageresizer.codeplex.com/
edited by WozToons on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 17:28:51

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396
I dig the separate window for the transport controls (play, stop, etc). Nice one, Woz.

Some time last year, I had them on a status bar that permanently sat at the bottom of the window. It had the usual controls in there, plus a slide for scrubbing backwards and forwards through time. It was great, it made the timeline so much easier to use. But there was a technical problem (isn't there always) and it had to be removed. I think there might be a way to bring it back for only timeline / directing modes.

That's a task for next week though. It's Friday evening. I'm tired, drained and emotional so I'm going home. Please keep the feedback and suggestions coming over the weekend, I'll try to check in occasionally. Seeya Muvizuers. Thumbs Up

PS: I've had some success with only showing animated things in the timeline as per Dreeko's suggestion. It needs some work, but I think it's a goer.
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12/04/2013 17:31:26

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
Neil wrote:
That's a task for next week though. It's Friday evening. I'm tired, drained and emotional so I'm going home. Please keep the feedback and suggestions coming over the weekend, I'll try to check in occasionally. Seeya Muvizuers. Thumbs Up


Good luck for getting through the forum tsunami on Monday!


Neil wrote:
PS: I've had some success with only showing animated things in the timeline as per Dreeko's suggestion. It needs some work, but I think it's a goer.



Great!
edited by MrDrWho13 on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 17:44:17

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
Neil wrote:
I dig the separate window for the transport controls (play, stop, etc). Nice one, Woz.

Some time last year, I had them on a status bar that permanently sat at the bottom of the window. It had the usual controls in there, plus a slide for scrubbing backwards and forwards through time. It was great, it made the timeline so much easier to use. But there was a technical problem (isn't there always) and it had to be removed. I think there might be a way to bring it back for only timeline / directing modes.

That's a task for next week though. It's Friday evening. I'm tired, drained and emotional so I'm going home. Please keep the feedback and suggestions coming over the weekend, I'll try to check in occasionally. Seeya Muvizuers. Thumbs Up

PS: I've had some success with only showing animated things in the timeline as per Dreeko's suggestion. It needs some work, but I think it's a goer.



Thanks for the hard works really for me its been a hard week too, but alas I am always tired, drained and emotional so dont mind me. I'm a 50 year old woman going through you know that change of life thing so that is my excuse and I am sticking to it! Anyhow here is to hoping I can put Rosie as my star security guard that makes sure everyone is good when they enter the daily planet next muvizuzu superman movie thing.
edited by urbanlamb on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 19:38:09

ziggy72Muvizu mogulExperimental user
ziggy72
Posts: 1988
Okay, so you can have a fully functional interface, and it will be complex, or a simple interface, which will be limited. Muvizu is trying to do both and it doesn’t work. It never does – not in 3D studio, nor Sketchup or Blender or Vegas or Daz or iClone or anything else for that matter – there will always be someone who looks at an interface and throws up their hands and declares it’s impossibly complicated, no matter how user friendly you try to make it. Screw ‘em. You can’t please everyone, so just aim for the majority and add some tooltip help and slightly patronising tutorials for the rest

Adding everything in the set as a line in the Timeline (by default) is unhelpful, for everyone new and old, I think we all agree on that one. Ironically, the biggest strength of Muvizu was that everything was accessible through the Timeline, but now it’s become its biggest weakness. The Timeline should contain only what the user needs and has selected for use – presenting a new user with a list containing dozens or hundreds of lines will make them run for the hills. So, what to do?

How about this – separate the Timeline into what makes sense logically – there is a Character Timeline, and a Studio Timeline (or Set Timeline, whatever you want to call it). They would both share the cue points for syncing purposes, but other than that they would be distinct from each other because they don’t do the same things. The actions a character can perform have no connection to, say, the movement path of a box, so why have them in the same place? Do objects have eye movements? No, time for a parting of the waves I reckon...

I liked Urbanlamb’s idea of having links to other menus right inside the Timeline, and after a bit of musing came up with this – you’d right click on a character, then select Timeline, and you’d see this (not really to scale, sized just for emphasis) :



Only Character lines would appear in the Timeline, and all Characters would be shown here and not on the Studio Timeline. The character you’ve selected is top of the list, the rest are listed either alphabetically or by date, or maybe by animated and non animated, hmm... Anyway, each button would expand when selected like so :



Clicking the +Movement button would take you to the movement direction box, gestures to Prepare Character Actions, and so on. The crosses on the right would scrub the animations recorded on that timeline, as you’d expect. The blank bit to the left is where you’d have your show/hide all buttons or something equally helpful. No object, lights, cameras or anything like that shown here – just everything that’s directly relevant to a Characters behaviour (and one mystical day, the fabled “props” button will appear, allowing you to select what’s in their hands...)

The Studio Timeline (accessible by right clicking anywhere that’s not a character) would therefore look like this :



Same idea, with each button expanding (if necessary) with the sub options leading to the various screens dotted around Muvizu’s labyrinth of ‘prepare’ dialogs There are no character lines here, and this would help shrink down the Timeline a bit (and the scrolling, the endless scrolling...)

Please note that I only distinguish between Voice and Sound, not Audio, Dialogue and Sound FX as we currently have it, which I never thought made sense – isn’t dialogue audio? Preparing the audio separately beforehand, then having to re-select it as Dialogue seems like a duplication of labour, and a bit confusing. You could still list Sound as two entities - Sound FX and Soundtrack, but I’d put all dialog options (import, prep, direct) into one Voice menu, like how you integrated the Head/eye/eye size controls into one menu.

Right now, if I attempted to load up my Woodland set, all those ferns would have a line shown for them. Every single one. To quote Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons – “There’s no emoticon for what I’m feeling!”. Hope you find my ideas helpful in some way.

Keepin’ the faith

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12/04/2013 20:03:44

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
ok, Ziggy I'm very confused...

Do those buttons replace the little sub-menu collapse buttons?

I think my brain has switched off ready for the weekend.
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12/04/2013 20:20:09

urbanlamb
urbanlamb
(Account inactive)
Posts: 1796
ziggy72 wrote:


Keepin’ the faith




okay you read my mind with your mockup i tried a rushed one yesterday but.. i am doing the multitask thing. Yes this is a good representation of the interface that was in my brain.

I will add this photo here in case but those sub menus would be somehow linked to the "main timeline" menu .. again i dont see a way to get around this sort of thing it just wont function ziggy's is way neater i did mine in less then 60 seconds.. i move fast when doing 20 things at once


edited by urbanlamb on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 20:41:38

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
Zig!
Sterling effort on the mock up!
I can see a merit in the timeline becoming a does all direction box of tricks in some kind of similar way. I think a combination of ideas from this brainstorming thread could yield a really good timeline!
I would still love the items on the timeline to be only present if they have been directed though, especially now that Neil reports that he thinks has it to the stage that he can call it a go-er!

I wouldn't like to see objects and character separated in the same way that you do, as it is handy to have them visible to keep an eye on them as you direct the other elements.
Also in addition to( or instead of) the option to access direction from the timeline I would dearly love to be able to access direct and prepare modes by right clicking on a character/object/light etc and selecting from the right click menu. I don't know how many times I've done this by accident expecting to be able to to no avail which makes me think that if it is my natural instinct to expect to find them there then they really should be!

I think we are getting there folks! ...
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12/04/2013 20:50:16

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
I was just creating a mock up to try to bring together Ziggy (and urbanlamb's) and Dreeko's timeline concepts, when I witnessed the blue screen of death. My PC is now restarting with 'no changes made to files or software' and I'm hoping that is true.
edited by MrDrWho13 on 12/04/2013
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12/04/2013 21:09:39

ziggy72Muvizu mogulExperimental user
ziggy72
Posts: 1988
MrDrWho13 wrote:
ok, Ziggy I'm very confused...

Do those buttons replace the little sub-menu collapse buttons?

I think my brain has switched off ready for the weekend.


No, they would remain, this is just about getting the functions clearer and I think having a target oriented timeline would have benefits. I think we're past berating the million click drop down issue
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12/04/2013 21:25:58

ziggy72Muvizu mogulExperimental user
ziggy72
Posts: 1988
Dreeko wrote:
I wouldn't like to see objects and character separated in the same way that you do, as it is handy to have them visible to keep an eye on them as you direct the other elements.

How do you mean, D? Is it something along the lines of wanting to see the animation blocks for one thing while you direct something else? Having more than 1 timeline might assist that, is what I'm thinking (if I'm thinking what you're thinking, but your thinking may be completely different... )
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12/04/2013 21:26:02

MrDrWho13Muvizu mogulExperimental user
MrDrWho13
Posts: 2220
Ok, so the new buttons are just the same as the sub-menu thingys, but easier to access?

ps: PC is running fine now.
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12/04/2013 21:41:10

ziggy72Muvizu mogulExperimental user
ziggy72
Posts: 1988
MrDrWho13 wrote:
Ok, so the new buttons are just the same as the sub-menu thingys, but easier to access?

Yes - have you never thought it odd that you can mess around with, say, head movement blocks in the Timeline, but to add or change them you have to use the menu to get to the option to do that? (assuming your average newb can even find it) Not really intuitive, I think.
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