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14/09/2010 07:55:19

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
Facial animation is a must for the muvizu to do list i would hope but i was wondering how you might implement it..



Then i remembered a youtube video which shows a way of moving from expression to expression in a way similar to the way that muvizu has for animating the head (ie. dragging a ball around a head shape)

Yes I know its a video for anime studio but I thought the Scott McCloud's face theory and the methods employed could be of interest .




so here it is






Scott McCloud's books are great incidentally


Cheers

ps check out my Simon Evans movie its my first muvizu by da way!
edited by Dreeko on 20/12/2010
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14/09/2010 09:43:20

KerryK
KerryK
(Account inactive)
Posts: 176
hey dreeko,
thanks for the reference clip - it always helps when users can back up their suggestions/recommendations with something so visual. am sure it'll be of much use to the guys. as with everything, it's an evolving bit of software so getting a list of what you guys want to see in the app is a huge help to us.

thanks again
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14/09/2010 10:17:25

artpenMuvizu mogulExperimental user
artpen
Posts: 362
That is spot on dreeko, the face could be animated that way and it could hold a facial pose.
It would be easier to animate a chewing motion, or slowly glide into a grumpy sulk.
With this facial motion tool, you could even simulate a punch in the mouth with swinging jaw!!
The possibilitys are endless, muvizu needs this for real impact.
Remember, the face tells its own story Quiet
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14/09/2010 13:24:38

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
After posting my first post i have rummaged around for my scott mccloud book on making comics to check out the face theory and have since decided that a facial animation system based on the six primary expressions with a slider for the intensity of each might be the best path to follow



here is a couple of pages from the book to better explain









I think if you can put a facial animation system in place that gives us the ability to mix and match between the six expressions above then the sky's the limit
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15/09/2010 11:05:16

Emily
Emily
(Account inactive)
Posts: 346
Thanks Dreeko - that's really insightful, it looks like a very good book!
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15/09/2010 14:03:54

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
Emily wrote:
Thanks Dreeko - that's really insightful, it looks like a very good book!


Yes it is, well worth the coppers

So in summary six expressions with sliders for percentages of each....whats the chances of developing something like that for us lot to play with?

Thumbs Up
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23/09/2010 11:48:10

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
Dreeko wrote:
Emily wrote:
Thanks Dreeko - that's really insightful, it looks like a very good book!


Yes it is, well worth the coppers

So in summary six expressions with sliders for percentages of each....whats the chances of developing something like that for us lot to play with?

Thumbs Up


my first bump (i'm so proud!)
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23/09/2010 13:06:20

JamieMuvizu staff
Jamie
(Account inactive)
Posts: 609
Dreeko,

It's an interesting idea and generally has been considered (not in the way you describe though). Currently in the application you do get different extremes of facial expression for each mood, but these are randomly selected when a mood animation is used.

If you create a character and keep hitting Happy Idle, for example, you should see a few different happy style expressions. The same is true for angry, sad, scared, evil and fight. The down side is that once it is selected or in use you have no control over it.

It's something we can add to our wish list but don't hold your breath for it any time soon

--
Direct, don't animate!
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20/12/2010 21:09:01

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
Thought I'd bump again seeing as how there were a few comments on facial animation recently

check the images in the above posts and the YouTube link in the first post. All comments and ideas on how a facial animation system might appear in muvizu would be very interesting to read...


cheers

D
edited by Dreeko on 20/12/2010
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07/01/2011 17:23:13

mos6507
mos6507
Posts: 34
I would like to again mention how Xtranormal does things as a point of contrast. Not to say how it does it is best, but it is is pretty effective.
It just has an icon for expressions and you pick the type of expression (happy, sad, surprised, disgusted, angry) and control the percentage and duration.
The problem with this, in my experience is you can not have someone gradually get sad or gradually get more and more angry. It resets the expression before firing off the next expression.
I have managed to have a character get more and more sad by repeating the same sad icon a few times and ramping up the percentage, and it worked well in that isolated context, but there is a noticeable stair-stepping effect when it moves from one icon to the next.
Anyway, the way this works is a series of morphs. The character can still talk over this, but with the more realistic characters that have fully modeled mouths, it can interfere with lipsync. If a surprised expression pulls the mouth open and face back, they won't completely close their lips during lipsync. It's hard to do this right.
This is one of those things that is hard to simplify. You really need to provide some advanced switches. Like to turn off mouth influence or be able to raise individual eyebrows, control ease in-ease-out, etc...
I have played around a little with IClone and they have a new facial tool that lets you puppeteer the face in realtime with the mouse and other controls. This is awesome, but it's kind of overkill.
As I said in an earlier thread, emotion is conveyed by the whole enchilada. You have the dialogue, the face, but also the gestures. For stylized characters rather than the Beowulf-types of IClone, a simplified expression system is more than enough.
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07/01/2011 21:57:33

inlimbo
inlimbo
Posts: 70
Well said!
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17/05/2011 11:52:45

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
mos6507 wrote:
I would like to again mention how Xtranormal does things as a point of contrast. Not to say how it does it is best, but it is is pretty effective.
It just has an icon for expressions and you pick the type of expression (happy, sad, surprised, disgusted, angry) and control the percentage and duration.
The problem with this, in my experience is you can not have someone gradually get sad or gradually get more and more angry. It resets the expression before firing off the next expression.
I have managed to have a character get more and more sad by repeating the same sad icon a few times and ramping up the percentage, and it worked well in that isolated context, but there is a noticeable stair-stepping effect when it moves from one icon to the next.
Anyway, the way this works is a series of morphs. The character can still talk over this, but with the more realistic characters that have fully modeled mouths, it can interfere with lipsync. If a surprised expression pulls the mouth open and face back, they won't completely close their lips during lipsync. It's hard to do this right.
This is one of those things that is hard to simplify. You really need to provide some advanced switches. Like to turn off mouth influence or be able to raise individual eyebrows, control ease in-ease-out, etc...
I have played around a little with IClone and they have a new facial tool that lets you puppeteer the face in realtime with the mouse and other controls. This is awesome, but it's kind of overkill.
As I said in an earlier thread, emotion is conveyed by the whole enchilada. You have the dialogue, the face, but also the gestures. For stylized characters rather than the Beowulf-types of IClone, a simplified expression system is more than enough.



Very interesting
I think the number keypad which is used for implementing character animations could be a route the devs may go when it comes to the facial animation. Expressions assigned to the different keys
press 1 for happy 2 for sad etc. but hopefully the expressions would blend between each other as we switch,( like the head and eye movements) with the ability to select and use expressions in-between that we could then assign to different keys and expand the choice.

I wouldn't like to see just a frantic swapping of emotions on the characters, which would happen if a blending system is not put in place.

Can't wait to see what's ahead..

Cheers

D
edited by Dreeko on 17/05/2011
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13/06/2011 17:44:27

mystoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
mysto
Posts: 471
Since more control over facial animation seems to be a ways off maybe if we had a few more different moods to choose from? Disgusted, shy, surprised, shocked, coy, bewildered, etc.

I've been working on a few projects where the characters should give more of a a disgusted or shocked look. I've been messing with different variations of the angry and scared moods to try and get the look I'm after but I'm not quite getting the look I would like. A few of the presently available moods would work if the character didn't automatically go into the "pose" set for that particular mood. I could use the look on their face but the pose they go into to get that look isn't right for what I need. It's not a big deal as I'll find a "workaround" to get what I am after but it would be great to have more moods to choose from if possible.

Should I put my suggestions on post-it notes and send them to your office? Oh wait, you don't have any room for more post-it notes and besides, I don't want to see any more dragons being shot. I know, I'll fire up the Dreeko signal and see what happens!!!

Great software guys! Keep up the good work! Toast
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14/06/2011 14:22:24

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
I look forward to the day where facial animation makes an appearance in Muvizu but I would like to see it appear in the best form the Muvizu gods can muster. Not a half baked "this'll do for now" attempt.

I'm sure that this is what they would prefer too!

Cheers
D
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14/06/2011 15:10:16

toonaramaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
toonarama
Posts: 661
facial puppeteering available in Reallusion products like Crazytalk and Crazytalk animator is very easy to use and produces effective results. Don't know whether something like this is a possibility.

It basically has 2 modes of operation in CTA

a) sprite based (where sprites are simply replaced)
b) morph based (picture of face is morphed)

This is the morph based:


edited by toonarama on 14/06/2011
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14/06/2011 18:33:21

dwino
dwino
Posts: 56
Hmmmm. I mostly agree with D, but not entirely. What is currently in Muvizu is fun and creative, but many features are half-baked at their current state. Along the way, in order to get things going on Muvizu the developers have had to say 'this'll do for now" several times.

I don't mind if they keep chipping away without the fully formed feature, as long as they lay a good foundation for things to blossom over time. So I wouldn't wish for things to be half-baked in terms of Muvizu going down an alternative road that's so-so. However, I don't mind half-baked if it's the start of a good facial animation system that is not yet fully featured.
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14/06/2011 18:48:39

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
dwino wrote:
Hmmmm. I mostly agree with D, but not entirely. What is currently in Muvizu is fun and creative, but many features are half-baked at their current state. Along the way, in order to get things going on Muvizu the developers have had to say 'this'll do for now" several times.

I don't mind if they keep chipping away without the fully formed feature, as long as they lay a good foundation for things to blossom over time. So I wouldn't wish for things to be half-baked in terms of Muvizu going down an alternative road that's so-so. However, I don't mind half-baked if it's the start of a good facial animation system that is not yet fully featured.


Point taken and very well put

Can't wait to see how they implement it!
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14/06/2011 19:36:27

mystoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
mysto
Posts: 471
dwino wrote:
Hmmmm. I mostly agree with D, but not entirely. What is currently in Muvizu is fun and creative, but many features are half-baked at their current state. Along the way, in order to get things going on Muvizu the developers have had to say 'this'll do for now" several times.

I don't mind if they keep chipping away without the fully formed feature, as long as they lay a good foundation for things to blossom over time. So I wouldn't wish for things to be half-baked in terms of Muvizu going down an alternative road that's so-so. However, I don't mind half-baked if it's the start of a good facial animation system that is not yet fully featured.


Very well put! Great post. Toast
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15/06/2011 11:22:33

Marco_D
Marco_D
Posts: 582
Indeed guys.

Our development team is always looking for ways to improve and/or add features to Muvizu.
Although we are in the beta stage, unstable builds / features is not an option for us. We have high standards on that regard.

So if/when this feature is added you can be sure it will allow you to make the most out of it
Like Dreeko, I'm looking forward to this and can't wait till I put my hands on it.

Cheers,
M
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15/06/2011 15:00:21

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1258
Facial animation capture using an xbox Kinect!:


edited by Dreeko on 15/06/2011
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